Topic: Evaluation of installation software (1 of 12), Read 27 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Christian Ziemski
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 03:35 PM

On 03.03.2009 20:53 vtech-convert Listmanager wrote:
> From: "Ted Green"
>
> Gabe has started working on creating an .msi installation program;

Don't you like installw.vdm any more? Or has it limitations?

Many people dislike msi, for example due to the facts listed in the "Disadvantages" topic here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer

> mostly just evaluating InstallShield and other commercial products.

Only commercial ones?
What about free alternatives like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullsoft_Scriptable_Install_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inno_Setup


Christian

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (2 of 12), Read 21 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ted Green
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 03:50 PM

At 03:35 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote:
>From: "Christian Ziemski"
>
>On 03.03.2009 20:53 vtech-convert Listmanager wrote:
>> From: "Ted Green"
>>
>> Gabe has started working on creating an .msi installation program;
>
>Don't you like installw.vdm any more? Or has it limitations?
>
>Many people dislike msi, for example due to the facts listed in the "Disadvantages" topic here:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer

Increasingly, people cannot download .exe files through their firewall and also want an attached security certificate to confirm the authenticity of the install file.

Most likely we are only going to perform a minimal installation with the .msi file and then have a new installw.vdm run the first time to finish the installation. Hopefully we will eventually have a "Check Updates" function to check for updates, includes updates to macros.

>Only commercial ones?
>What about free alternatives like:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullsoft_Scriptable_Install_System
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inno_Setup

I will forward this info to Gabe, but I think he has already read the Wikipedia article in detail. He has already evaluated several free and low-priced packages and concluded that using (expensive) InstallShield will save him (paid) time, have maximum compatibility and expandability.

Ted.

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (5 of 12), Read 22 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Pauli Lindgren
Date: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 01:01 PM

On 3/3/2009 3:50:27 PM, Ted Green wrote:
>
>I will forward this info to Gabe, but I
>think he has already read the Wikipedia
>article in detail. He has already
>evaluated several free and low-priced
>packages and concluded that using
>(expensive) InstallShield will save him
>(paid) time, have maximum compatibility
>and expandability.

I very much dislike InstallShield.
The first thing it does is that it invades the whole screen, including task bar.
Then it says "You must close all applications...". But since the screen has been filled with the installer, you can not close the applications or even see if there are applications open.
So only thing you can do is to cancel the installation.
Then InstallShield says "Are you stupid? The installation is not ready you are trying to cancel it." (Or something like that.)

I have always wondered why such a simple thing as installing software has to be made so difficult by using installer. Even in cases where you would only need to unzip the files to some directory.

At least some freeware installers are somewhat lighter than InstallShield.

--
Pauli

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (8 of 12), Read 19 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ted Green
Date: Thursday, March 05, 2009 02:23 PM

At 01:02 PM 3/4/2009, vtech-install-config Listmanager wrote:
>From: "Pauli Lindgren"
>I very much dislike InstallShield.
>The first thing it does is that it invades the whole screen, including task bar.
>Then it says "You must close all applications...". But since the screen has been filled with the installer, you can not close the applications or even see if there are applications open.
>So only thing you can do is to cancel the installation.
>Then InstallShield says "Are you stupid? The installation is not ready you are trying to cancel it." (Or something like that.)
>
>I have always wondered why such a simple thing as installing software has to be made so difficult by using installer. Even in cases where you would only need to unzip the files to some directory.

I think these are all choices that the software vendor makes. There have been many releases of InstallShield and then there are different versions. Recent ones can be setup with a very basic Wizard which generates a very crappy installation.

I think many software companies rush-rush the installation program and do not give it enough effort. InstallShield has a very comprehensive underlying programming language, and if you spend the time to learn it and program it, you can create a very elegant and clean installation. Gabe's assignment is not to create a crappy installation, but to become an expert at writing installation programs, and in the process create a new installation program for VEDIT.

Rest assured, I am only going to release an InstallShield installation if we can get it to work exactly as we want, clean and quick.

Ted.

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (9 of 12), Read 20 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Christian Ziemski
Date: Thursday, March 05, 2009 02:30 PM

On 05.03.2009 20:25 vtech-install-config Listmanager wrote:
> From: "Ted Green"
>
> Rest assured, I am only going to release an InstallShield
> installation if we can get it to work exactly as we want,
> clean and quick.

I'm completely relaxed again now! ;-)


Christian

 


Topic: Evaluation of installation software (3 of 12), Read 22 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ian Binnie
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 06:02 PM

On 3/3/2009 3:35:10 PM, Christian Ziemski wrote:

>> Gabe has started working on creating an .msi installation program;

>Don't you like installw.vdm any more? Or
>has it limitations?

>Many people dislike msi, for example due
>to the facts listed in the
>"Disadvantages" topic here:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Ins
>taller

Christian, I also dislike .msi.
I usually use Uniextract to unpack .msi files before use, so I can see what is in them, and avoid the rubbish.

If Ted does use it, I hope it will be compatible with older installers. It is annoying to have to keep installing newer and more bloated installers on older systems. Fortunately the unpack usually lets you get around this.

Many programs, particularly open source, also offer a zip option.

I hope the USB install will still be supported, and that I can install under wine in Linux.

I just hope vedit doesn't follow Microsoft's accreditation guidelines and abandon the .ini and put everything in the registry.

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (4 of 12), Read 23 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ted Green
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 06:21 PM

At 06:02 PM 3/3/2009, vtech-install-config Listmanager wrote:

>Christian, I also dislike .msi.
>I usually use Uniextract to unpack .msi files before use, so I can see what is in them, and avoid the rubbish.
>
>If Ted does use it, I hope it will be compatible with older installers. It is annoying to have to keep installing newer and more bloated installers on older systems. Fortunately the unpack usually lets you get around this.

We plan to support a very old .msi installed, version 1.1?

>Many programs, particularly open source, also offer a zip option.

We will continue to do that too.

>I hope the USB install will still be supported, and that I can install under wine in Linux.

Yes, of course.

>I just hope vedit doesn't follow Microsoft's accreditation guidelines and abandon the .ini and put everything in the registry.

We will continue to use the vedit.ini, vedit.cfg and vedit.key files, putting as little into the registry as possible. This is one reason we probably will use the .msi installation for very little, as they make it difficult to use .ini files.

Don't worry, this will all be done appropriately and without bad surprises. :-)

Ted.

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (6 of 12), Read 25 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Pauli Lindgren
Date: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 01:08 PM

On 3/3/2009 6:21:11 PM, Ted Green wrote:
>
>We will continue to use the vedit.ini,
>vedit.cfg and vedit.key files, putting
>as little into the registry as possible.
>This is one reason we probably will use
>the .msi installation for very little,
>as they make it difficult to use .ini
>files.

Talking about Registry, the toolbar settings are stored there. Is that really the only way to configure toolbar? It causes problems for example with USB installation.

And it would be nice to be able to change the toolbar on the fly. For example, to have different toolbar configurations for each project. (That subject was discussed couple of years ago.)

--
Pauli

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (7 of 12), Read 26 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ted Green
Date: Thursday, March 05, 2009 02:14 PM

At 01:08 PM 3/4/2009, you wrote:
>From: "Pauli Lindgren"
>
>On 3/3/2009 6:21:11 PM, Ted Green wrote:
>>
>>We will continue to use the vedit.ini,
>>vedit.cfg and vedit.key files, putting
>>as little into the registry as possible.
>>This is one reason we probably will use
>>the .msi installation for very little,
>>as they make it difficult to use .ini
>>files.
>
>Talking about Registry, the toolbar settings are stored there. Is that really the only way to configure toolbar? It causes problems for example with USB installation.

The Windows API has toolbar functions which VEDIT uses; the API saves the toolbar configuration in the registry. I suspect it would take a huge amount of effort to configure it from a file, and/or have a different toolbar for different projects. This does not sound like a good use of our time right now. Sorry, but sometime I have to say No.

Ted.

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (10 of 12), Read 26 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Pauli Lindgren
Date: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:12 PM

On 3/5/2009 2:14:17 PM, Ted Green wrote:
>>
>>Talking about Registry, the toolbar settings are stored there. Is that really the only way to configure toolbar? It causes problems for example with USB installation.
>
>The Windows API has toolbar functions
>which VEDIT uses; the API saves the
>toolbar configuration in the registry.

But is that the *only* API function for creating a toolbar?

I am not expert in Windows programming, but usually there are multiple ways to do things in Windows. The toolbar Vedit uses looks quite old fashioned, so maybe there are newer API calls available.

With a quick Google search I found for example the following sites that contain tutorials for creating dockable toolbars in plain C:
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/toolbars/dockwnd.aspx
http://www.catch22.net/tuts/

> I suspect it would take a huge amount of
>effort to configure it from a file,
>and/or have a different toolbar for
>different projects. This does not sound
>like a good use of our time right now.
>Sorry, but sometime I have to say No.

Really?
I made a long time ago a macro that allows saving and loading toolbar. You can load the macro from my web site:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/pkl/vedit/macros/toolbar_save.vdm

The problem is that the toolbar is updated only when restarting Vedit. However, since the customize toolbar function does update the toolbar in real time, it should be possible to update the toolbar without restarting Vedit.

This was discussed in "VEDIT Beta Test" conference in topic "Toolbar buttons and USB stick installation" in March 2006.. (I don't know how to make a link to a WebBoard topic.)

--
Pauli

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (11 of 12), Read 30 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Christian Ziemski
Date: Friday, March 06, 2009 01:10 PM

On 3/6/2009 12:12:30 PM, Pauli Lindgren wrote:

>This was discussed in "VEDIT Beta Test" conference in topic "Toolbar buttons and
>USB stick installation" in March 2006..
>(I don't know how to make a link to a WebBoard topic.)

You can copy the link address of a topic shown in the tree view on the left side.

Your thread is here:
http://webboard..../read?21072,359

You may have to click on the "Entire Topic" link to expand the topic.

Christian

 


Topic: Re: Evaluation of installation software (12 of 12), Read 27 times
Conf: Installation, Configuration
From: Ted Green
Date: Saturday, March 07, 2009 06:20 PM

At 12:12 PM 3/6/2009, you wrote:
>>The Windows API has toolbar functions
>>which VEDIT uses; the API saves the
>>toolbar configuration in the registry.
>
>But is that the *only* API function for creating a toolbar?

Of course not. I think we even implemented our own in the first Windows version of VEDIT, but it was not easily customizable.

>Really?
>I made a long time ago a macro that allows saving and loading toolbar. You can load the macro from my web site:
>http://koti.mbnet.fi/pkl/vedit/macros/toolbar_save.vdm
>
>The problem is that the toolbar is updated only when restarting Vedit. However, since the customize toolbar function does update the toolbar in real time, it should be possible to update the toolbar without restarting Vedit.

I will study this later. Right now I am using my limited VEDIT time to get the updated macros checked out and ready for release.

Ted.